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Posted by: mpawlak Nov 5 2001, 03:10 PM

What are the software/hardware requirements for network licensing of IronCAD?

Am I correct in understanding that IronCAD can only be installed on one machine per codeword with 5.0? That because of hardware fingerprinting the "honor system" floating license will no longer work? What about commuter licenses?

Posted by: Chris Lohman Nov 5 2001, 05:07 PM

With 5.0 we have introduced a new licensing mechanism. Here's how it works:

For IronCAD you can purchase a "Per Seat" license, or a floating license that is tied to a license manager.

When 5.0 arrives it is pre-activated for 30 days. For 30 days it will run from the first time IronCAD was run, not the first time it was installed.

You will receive a serial # and codeword. Those are now used to "Activate" your product. When you activate your product, it will send the serial and codeword up to our server. Our server will then generate a license and send it to you in an email as an attachment. You will save that attachment to your local disk and then run it. (double click on it). When you run it, it installs your license. That license now only works on that one system. If you ever need to change systems, hardware, etc, give us a call and we'll help transition the license. We can also activate licenses via fax instead of internet.

If you have a single user IronCAD license, you can also purchase a commuter license for very little. This will allow you to install on one other piece of hardware.

For companies with higher numbers of users you can also purchase a license manager for concurrent instead of named licenses. If you have 10 people that need to use IronCAD, but only 3 of them will ever use IronCAD at the same time, you could purchase a license server and then purchase a few concurrent licenses so that everyone can share licenses across the network. The concurrent licenses would still have a hardware lock but would be tied to the server instead of the client.

Posted by: mpawlak Nov 5 2001, 05:33 PM

Well, that's what I was afraid of, and it's a little disappointing. We currently have 2 licenses and 3 part-time users on 3 machines. We'll have to either buy another seat or buy software/equipment to run a license server. I was trying to determine which option would be more cost effective; that's why I was requesting the requirements for the license server. Is it restricted to a Win2000 server like TeamVault?

Posted by: Chris Lohman Nov 6 2001, 01:12 PM

I'm trying to gather some info on the license server. A license server isn't a seperate physical piece of hardware, it's simply a server application that runs on some other windows box. So you should be able to run it on one of your workstations. I'll post more information when I obtain it.

Posted by: mpawlak Nov 6 2001, 02:31 PM

Running the license server from an existing NT workstation would be ideal. Thanks looking into this.

Posted by: Chris Lohman Nov 19 2001, 08:43 PM

OK here's some more info:

The license server product that we use is called SentinelLM which is produced by Rainbow Technologies. Our license server is based on the SentinelLM but there are a few differences.

In general the license server will run on any Windows NT based system. So that's Windows NT and Windows 2000. It does not require the server version of those OS's, the workstation versions are fine.

The communication protocol that we support is TCP/IP.

So even if you're in an NT workgroup environment, with no domain and no servers, you should still be able to install the license server on any nt workstation and run it. The license server does tie itself down to the hardware so once you dedicate a box as the license server you have to stick with it.

Posted by: Linas Martinenas Nov 20 2001, 05:44 AM

How much is a commuter licence? The last time I have heard of it, you could only buy it at the same time as the main seat, but that was VDS days.

Posted by: mpawlak Nov 20 2001, 01:50 PM

I have a pretty red and black certificate which entitles me to a Telecommuter License provided by Visionary Design Systems. Are these still valid? If so how does it work around the new security features?

Posted by: Chris Lohman Nov 20 2001, 02:42 PM

hmm....

The commuter license is $400

I'm checking on what they will do with old vds commuter licenses. That was two companies ago so...I dunno, I'll check...

Posted by: dsulli Nov 20 2001, 02:56 PM

Chris,

I do believe that most other Mid-Range solid modelers offer free commuter use (SoliWorks does). I vote that IronCAD match this convenient bonus.

Dave

Posted by: dlalonde Nov 20 2001, 03:24 PM

Certainly for the faithful (aa subscribers) !

Posted by: Chris Lohman Nov 20 2001, 03:46 PM

Here's the response from our OFD on what's going to happen with previously purchased telecommuter licenses from old Alventive or VDS days:

The theory on Telecommuter licenses has not changed. We have never charged AA for telecommuter. If the main product is supported, which his is, he automatically has the right to update his telecommuter with his main license. His record in Onyx reflects this and it looks like he is good to go with 5.0 for his main and TC license.

Posted by: kbell Nov 20 2001, 06:29 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsulli :
Chris,

I do believe that most other Mid-Range solid modelers offer free commuter use (SoliWorks does). I vote that IronCAD match this convenient bonus.

Dave

---

If solidworks offers this for free, you would think that Ironcad would. Being the little guy in the industry should make Ironcad more willing to work with us on this issue.

Posted by: Dave Parrish Nov 23 2001, 02:02 PM

A small voice, perhaps, but I need to weigh-in on this topic.

I have been using the IC product since it was TriSpectives. Over the years, it has evolved into a pretty darn good design tool. It has taken a while, though and I have stuck with it through thick and thin... yes, there were some very trying times.

Every year, I ante-up my AA premium. However this year is different. It seems that there is a new wrinkle in the licensing scheme that prevents me from installing on my two machines unless I add a new "commuter" license fee.

It seems I am being punished for being a loyal, faithful user and promoter of IronCAD. The punishment is in the form of this extra fee for wanting to install IC on the extra computer that I use.

And, what, heaven forbid, would it take to also install it on my laptop so that I could take it to the customer's site for a meeting?

Should I be allowed to run more than one installation of IC under my existing license? I would certainly hope so... Other software, ie. SolidWorks and others, apparently allows this.

Is there anyone else in this boat with me? I'd like to hear from you, if you find yourself in similar situation.

Dave Parrish
Parrish Associates, Inc.
www.pai-design.com

Dave Parrish
Parrish Associates, Inc.
Wake Forest, NC 27588-0972
www.pai-design.com

Posted by: Ecurveman Nov 24 2001, 03:03 PM

I use a laptop as my second computer too I hope to circumvent this microsoft mentality by using a pervious version of IC on my laptop

Bruce

Posted by: dsulli Nov 25 2001, 07:49 AM

quote:

---

Originally posted by dparrish:
A small voice, perhaps, but I need to weigh-in on this topic.

I have been using the IC product since it was TriSpectives. Over the years, it has evolved into a pretty darn good design tool. It has taken a while, though and I have stuck with it through thick and thin... yes, there were some very trying times.

Every year, I ante-up my AA premium. However this year is different. It seems that there is a new wrinkle in the licensing scheme that prevents me from installing on my two machines unless I add a new "commuter" license fee.

It seems I am being punished for being a loyal, faithful user and promoter of IronCAD. The punishment is in the form of this extra fee for wanting to install IC on the extra computer that I use.

And, what, heaven forbid, would it take to also install it on my laptop so that I could take it to the customer's site for a meeting?

Should I be allowed to run more than one installation of IC under my existing license? I would certainly hope so... Other software, ie. SolidWorks and others, apparently allows this.

Is there anyone else in this boat with me? I'd like to hear from you, if you find yourself in similar situation.

Dave Parrish
Parrish Associates, Inc.
www.pai-design.com

Dave Parrish
Parrish Associates, Inc.
Wake Forest, NC 27588-0972
www.pai-design.com

---

It only makes sense to me that since you can't use more than one computer at a time, loading IC at home or on a laptop should be without extra charge. Many of us bring our work home and it surely would get tiring if we had to pack-up our PC to do so. I still believe that IronCAD is a great deal, but it sure would be nice if we could use it at home without having to pay extra $.

Posted by: Joe Walsh Nov 26 2001, 04:45 PM

I would like to take a few moments to clarify network licensing for IRONCAD 5.0

IRONCAD is now available on a Named User basis or a Concurrent User basis. The Named User license is tied to a particular machine ID. The Concurrent User lisence is managed by a Network License Manager.

You can have any combination of Named User licenses and Concurrent User Licenses. The Network License Manager resides on a computer on the network and checks out licenses based on actual usage. A single Network License Manager can be used for both IRONCAD and INOVATE licenses.
Concurrent User seats must have access to the network to obtain a license. The software is loaded on each machine and obtains a license from the Network LIcense Manager.

There are two versions available of the Network License Manager. The first allows control of an unlimited number of concurrent users. The second is for smaller installations with a maximum of 5 concurrent users. Please contact your local channel partner or IronCAD for detailed pricing information.

The network licensing does not impact the telecommuter license. The Telecommuter is a unique offering from IronCAD allowing you to load IRONCAD on your home or laptop computer. This is available as acompanion for licenses that are current on Armor Advantage. There is a small one time fee and the Telecommuter stays current as long as the base license Armor Advantage is current.

We understand that the Network licensing is a change in licensing structure and would be happy to discuss your situation and transition to the new licensing structure. Please contact your local channel partner or IronCAD to discuss your particular situation.

Joe Walsh
VP, Worldwide Sales
IronCAD, LLC

Posted by: dlalonde Nov 26 2001, 08:05 PM

slam !

Posted by: mpawlak Nov 26 2001, 09:17 PM

I just talked to our local "channel partner" who informed me that the smaller license server goes for $3750 plus $1250 per year maintenance above the IronCAD AA fee. That doesn't really make it cost effective for 3 part-time users sharing 2 licenses. Needless to say we'll be buying another seat - how clever of you IronCAD!

One of the reasons we went with IronCAD was that we were part time users, and that we'd have to re-learn Pro-E every other time we used it. Create Protrusion Extrude Done-Select Done Done Done. IronCAD was intuitive and easy-to-use, and didn't have formal license restrictions like our Pro-E designers did - perfect for us. We even bought a second seat after about a year because we were honorable. Well now I guess IronCAD is a bit more like Pro-E. Not a good thing.

I recognize you're well within your rights but is the company that strapped for cash that you need to aggravate long-time customers who would have previously recommended IronCAD without hesitation (almost)? You could've at least offered a server license at a reasonable price - < $500. I would think that until IronCAD is a more recognized name with a larger installed base you guys would concentrate on marketing and (useful) enhancements. You should've sent out the 30-day IronCAD trials to every CAD user out there, then made the cash from new customers. Most of the searches done on iccentral.com are for "free demo". Now hopefully you won't lose as many customers as the licenses you gain. Ok, done ranting.

Posted by: scharlton Nov 27 2001, 01:23 AM

I go back to the days of Trispective and I love IC but I don't like the new licensing method. I loaded IC5 on my current PC and will soon be upgrading the PC. It will be a hassle loading it on the new PC. Maybe IC should use the dongle instead of the Microsoft Windows-XP method. I quess I will just stick with IC4.2 and not renew my AA.

Posted by: jmouser Nov 27 2001, 02:18 PM

I had chimed in on this on an unrelated thread. Chris still found it and answered my question as follows:

When you purchase a commuter license we configure your serial and codeword to work with the product activation server twice. So just use your same serial and codeword on both systems, running through the activation wizard on each system, and it should allow you to activate two licenses.

My original question was:

Does anybody know how to load the commuter license with the new install registration process? I have a certificate that we bought from a VAR who's no longer around. That's all we got. A certificate. Does that sound right? Should there be some seperate codes or something?
Thanks.

*******

In my Gen-X opinion I believe that IronCAD's stance is right between that of a Pro/E and that of a SolidWorks 2000.

I heard that SolidWorks is tightening up security too however.

I'm not sure I understand the argument about having 2 licenses on 3 machines, with three users, and the 'part-time' qualifier, and this whole honor system thing. I've seen the honor system at work with software, and it's not a pretty site.

Seems to me like a commuter license or two would do MPawlak (and others) some good.

I spent some time with my previous Alventive VAR, and there were a lot of sales that got left on the table due to the fact that the lincenses weren't locked.

I believe that unlocking the software is a marketing strategy. I have frequently heard of the Microsoft model and the SolidWorks model for "commuter licensing". I am 100% convinced that these companies knew that the Napster* loving American's would pirate them like they're going out of style.

Why?

Market share. Get the people using it. Make it the standard. Then lock it up when you have them hooked. Notice the new security features on the Windows XP, and from what I've heard - SolidWorks.

John D. Mouser
JADIUM Corporation


* I know that both Microsoft & SolidWorks are pre-Napster companies. Please do not comment on that.


JADIUM Corporation is a pirate free organization. It is a real simple business plan. Pay the people who give us the tools to compete effectively so that we can continue the cycle of success. As the lovely sales lady at IronCAD will tell you I hold them fully accountable for their actions (and in-actions) as an Armour Advantage member.

This statement is not an endorsement for or against IronCAD.
Thanks for your time.

Posted by: mpawlak Nov 27 2001, 03:02 PM

My argument for the 2 licenses on three machines is simple. As long as all three users were not running IC at once we could get along with two licenses. It was an imaginary floating license. We were told that this scenario was fine when we signed up with IC v2.0 (actually it was two users with one license then). Now we must buy a third license or a license server for the same price. Companies are not eager to approve purchases for items they thought they already owned, especially in this economic climate.

If IronCAD is so security and license conscious now, I doubt they would like us using a telecommuter license on our third machine.

I can't wait until the RIAA makes us buy a CD for each CD player we own.

Posted by: rfisk Nov 27 2001, 05:32 PM

Using IronCad from the Trispective days and all along staying an AA member, I also have a problem with the new security measures like D.Parrish wrote. Because of the one computer restriction, I have yet to install version 5.
For the past 8 years I have made a point to keep 2 computers on my desk. This started when I could not accept a small rush project because my computer was down. One computer is not even connected to a network or the internet. Due to buying cycles I always seem to have 2 different operating systems which are now 98 and NT. Like everyone else has experienced, they both crash or lock up and when that happens the other machine is right there to continue with little lose of productivity. Multitasking on one machine isn't a functional reality with large files.
I have also had the need to load IronCad on a notebook to take on overseas trips so I could make a presentation and offer changes in real time.
It comes down to 1 person-1 license, used where that person is working at any given time. Sliding over 2 feet to the other computer doesn't seem like a commute to me.

Posted by: Scott Wallis Nov 27 2001, 05:55 PM

My situation is exactly the same as rfisk's, just about word for word. I have other software that uses a hardware key "dongle" so I can run it on any computer I want. It seems much simpler and it gives me the feeling of actually owning the software I paid so much for rather than that I am borrowing it with all kinds of restrictions on where I can use it. Can you offer a dongle as an option for those of us who would prefer it?

Posted by: tlymneos Nov 28 2001, 06:59 AM

I also use IC on two computer/operating systems like rfisk. My copy of IC 5.0 remains in the envelope uninstalled. IronCAD LLC should rethink its license policy.

Posted by: bladru Nov 29 2001, 11:11 AM

Dear people from Ironcad,

First of all, I love your product. You will not believe the things we have done with it.

I am using IC since Tri 1.0.

Why are you annoying with this new licensing only the people who have their principles and want to play things fair, and pay their AA every year ?
We all know that it is a matter of time before cracked versions will circulate. I will not use cracked versions because I want to pay for a good product, and I want to be sure that a product like IC will evolve. My point is that people like me are punished for good behaveviour and people (where all this security is ment for) will get a illigal version anyway.
I used to work at home too and I want to run IC on my laptop also. This is not possible anymore!
One other thing, who can guarantee me that IC will allways give me a new licence when I buy a new computer? Maybe IC will stop its commercial activities, or maybe IC does not like the looks of my face or whatever reason.

I dont think I will install 5.0 (there is no way back, because saved files will not open in 4.2), nor extend my AA until this issue is solved.

I feel punnished for supporting IC.

All the best,

Bas Ladru
Vocas b.v.

Posted by: Dave Parrish Nov 29 2001, 10:06 PM

FWIW... I've been doing some research and am concerned about what I have read.

Since this new IC license scheme is based on Windows XP product code identification number, I thought I'd have a look and see what was involved.

Windows XP bases the unique number on the specific hardware and configuration of your computer. In doing so, it bases this number on, among other things:

1. The Processor type and speed
2. RAM quantity
3. Graphic Card
4. Network Card
5. CD ROM
6. SCSI or IDE drive
7. etc.

No, I am not making this up.

So, when you want to change something, like add RAM, you generate a new number. MS Windows XP allows you to do that 3 times. On the 4th, you have to call MicroSoft to get authorization for another group of (probably) 3 numbers. (I think this means you have to get some sort of special dispensation from Bill Gates, hisself!)

So, how does this apply to IronCAD, you might ask.

Well, it looks like the IC license is either tied to or closely emulates the Windows XP thing. Which, if I read this right, means it will behave the same way. Which means we are in trouble... right here in River City.

Why? Well, as technical folks, wanting the latest in speed and flash, we are constantly upgrading. Myself, I just installed a new SCSI drive two weeks ago and more RAM a week or so before that. And, graphics card upgrades are always foremost in our "want list".

If we change any of those items, fellow IC users, we CHANGE THE NUMBER! Will our installation run after a hardware change? I dunno... Will IC run after a change of network card, I dunno... How about after installing that new CD burner?

I don't mean to foretell doom and gloom, but I see this whole scenario as a potential disaster. What techno-geek doesn't constantly want to change hardware and/or software to get the ultimate speed? What trouble is that going to bring when dealing with IC license issues and/or Windows XP issues?

For me, for the immediate future... I am sticking with Windows 2000 and IC 4.2. I've got my v5.0 sitting in the file, waiting for later install. Need to finish a major project first, then carefully evaluate what to do next.

Best of luck to all... and to all, a Good Night...

Dave Parrish
Parrish Associates, Inc.
Wake Forest, NC 27588-0972
www.pai-design.com

Posted by: Rick Dorrington Nov 30 2001, 01:23 AM

OK, time to chime in. The following opinions could be mine, depending on whether you agree or not. I have been waiting for someone at IronCad to set this straight but they probably don't want to make any more waves than they have to.

All this bleeding heart crap about licenses; Oh I don't feel like I own the software and I should be able to do what I want stuff is for the birds. If anybody has bothered to read their license agreement they might find things like this:

"Page 1, First thing: ATTENTION: THIS IS A LICENSE, NOT A SALE."

Read: We let you use it when we feel like it if you're good, but you don't own it buddy.

"Page 1, Section 4: This agreement and any attachments blah blah etc"

Read: We don't care what some guy said to you about using this software, if you don't have it in writing and signed by us then go fly a kite.

Next paragraph alludes to the fact that if you install the software then you have in fact agreed to the terms of the license; no if's, and's or but's. If you don't like it then send it back for a refund. (Hmmm, is that a stampede?)

"Page 2, Section 5: ...a non-exclusive license to use only ONE copy of the software on ONE computer, processor or controller at ONE time etc.

Read: Pretty self explanatory, but check out the defenition of "Use" to see that if you make a backup copy on another computer then you can't actually "use" it anywhere else.

Sounds pretty harsh don't you think. Well, not really - this is pretty standard stuff and most of us have agreed to this many times over with many companies out there. If you really want a laugh then read one of the agreements next time you install a patch from microsoft. You will find something to the effect that their liability is limited to the grand total of 5
dollars (That's George Washingtons, not loonies).No kidding, look near the end.

The point?

Ironcad is not doing anything that you the user have not agreed to. Just because you "could" put the software on 2 or more computers and maybe you had "part time" users or whatever the case may be doesn't mean it was right, or within your rights. And just because you circumvented the rules and somebody turned a blind eye doesn't justify the argument that you should be able to do it now.

The argument that IronCad (IC) has messed up with the licensing method is a bit misdirected. If you have a problem with this then just wait until next year when you might like to try XP. This anger should be directed to where it belongs - Big Bill who lives in the big house on the big hill in Washington State. You the user demand that your software runs pretty good and that it is compatible with just about any possible combination of 87 Bagillion ways to put a computer together. For a software company to do this means they have to follow the rules that the Microrobbers set down for them. This is why you are where you are today.

Continued next post.



Rick Dorrington
aero-safe technologies inc.

Posted by: Rick Dorrington Nov 30 2001, 01:24 AM

The solution? Well, I see two ways around this.(See disclaimer above) The first is to plop down your 400 bucks and get a telecommuter license (TL). I think that IC is being pretty generous here considering that there is no AA tied to your TL. Now you can do whatever you want with it within the bounds of the license agreement. Seems pretty fair.

Or, you could play by the rules and;

You could uninstall IC before you go home every night from your desktop system and install it on your laptop or run home and put it on your home system. Keep calling IC for a new license to do this. In the morning just reverse the procedure. One of two things will happen, either you will give up and decide that the 400 smackers is probably not a bad deal or if you have the stamina to keep it up for awhile then IC might decide that this situation is just too much and give you a TL. Either way it's a sweet deal. Everybody wins.

Now the flipside.

Just in case you think I have some divine interest in IronCads' fortune, I don't. Although I do think that they are one of the finest outfits I've every had to deal with. I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. jmouser. We too are a pirate free organization and darned proud of it.

I do think however that the Network License Scheme is a bit much. We use this type of thing with our CAM software and it cost us $1000.00 (Loonies that is, and no maintenance). It works great for us and would gladly use it for IC if the price was reasonable. $3450 US plus $1250 AA is shameful. If you have alot of users and can balance the cost/license versus your IT costs then it might make sense, but not for the majority. Why not tie the cost to the number of IC licenses that a company owns? This way the cost/license is standardized and the little guy gets the same benefits as the big guy. Be warned that it does have a downside in that if your server goes down you're kind of snook'd. (This is where I highly recommend IBM servers; not that they don't go down (they do, trust me) but when they do and you need service IBM drops an army onto your front door in a real hurry.)

PS. I just read what Dave Parish had to say and it reinforces what I was saying earlier. This license scheme could end up being such a pain in the behind for IC that they have to come up with some other way. The terds are just starting to hit the fan. Keep low men.

Rick Dorrington
aero-safe technologies inc.

Posted by: scharlton Nov 30 2001, 09:48 AM

Rick,
The solution is to use a dongle. I also have an Orcad PCB license and it came with a dongle. I just have to connect the dongle to the machine I am using and register the machines online. I can register as many machine as I want but can only use one at a time. I am planning to buy a workstation early next year and would like to install IC on it but I don't know how that will work. I currently use a consumer PC to run IC.

Posted by: mpawlak Nov 30 2001, 02:14 PM

As I've stated in previous posts on this message board, I think IronCAD is an exceptional product and IronCAD LCC is a great company. I've also stated that what they've done with the licensing scheme is well within their rights. It's just that they've made life a little more difficult for their customers, many of them are long-time customers without which their would be no IronCAD, or it would be called "PTC's Pro-Iron" featuring the ProBall or something.

Let's face it, most customers are not self-employed, so it's really no skin off their nose if their company has to buy another license or two. I don't care, I'm not expecting a bonus anyway. But getting their employers to do that is another story. And if the employers won't buy more licenses, it becomes very frustrating for the users. This is not IronCAD's fault, but they've forced the issue.

I think the general consensus is that we are requesting an affordable means of buying a license per instance of IronCAD (concurrently running IronCAD sessions) instead of buying a license for every machine and having a license tied to the machine's hardware configuration. Dongle and/or a realistic license server.

If buying a telecommuter license and then using it concurrently with a normal license is endorsed by IronCAD I'd like to hear it from them, since it seems to negate their whole new licensing scheme.

Posted by: Dave Parrish Nov 30 2001, 03:26 PM

I don't see any debate or question that IronCAD is not a fine product. And, for the most part, the users discussing this issue are long-term users, who have been with the product through thick and thin.

My company is small, perhaps unlike some other users whose company is large and has bags of loot stacked all around. The two situations result in different responses to the problem of licensing.

While I totally agree that proper licensing is essential, I am struggling with what appears to be a requirement to pay more money so that I can have two installations of IronCAD. If that is what I need to do, I will do it. However, I just don't like having someone else's hand in my pocket all the time.

As it is, I pay my AA subscription fee every year. However, that, along with paying payroll taxes. is like pulling teeth. It doesn't come easy, but it has to be done. I do it because I want to keep up with the latest software so that I can do a better, faster job. I know that paying that AA fee allows that to happen. I'm just trying to avoid paying more... and more... and more.

Sorry for the rant, but it just bugs me...

Posted by: Scott Wallis Nov 30 2001, 04:14 PM

To Rick D. :
"All this bleeding heart crap about licenses" Yikes! That was off base and uncalled for. Some of us are just concerned about what seems to be a cumbersome and potentially problematic liscensing system. I didn't say I owned the software, I said that having the dongle made me feel more like I owned it because of the freedom to move it from one machine to another. Obviously anyone who advocates the dongle solution has no plans to run the software on more than one machine at a time. How can you have a problem with that?

Posted by: Rick Dorrington Nov 30 2001, 05:15 PM

I don't have a problem with the dongle. We have lots of them. My post was not directed at anybody in particular, just the general feel of the topic. If I offended anyone then I sincerely apologize to them. Please forgive me. One of the things that I have always admired about these discussions is the lack of flaming. I certainly don't want to be the one to change that.

Our Cam software running with a Network License uses a dongle, as I said before we like it, it works for us. On the other hand we have dongles on our old systems and have been through several nightmares with the vendor because they can't keep their records straight. No doubt that IronCad would do a first class job keeping records, but just think about the logistics of keeping track of dongles across the planet. Dongles work but they can be a pain in the backside. Has anyone ever legitimately lost a dongle and had to endure the agonizing pain of having to get a new one? Or worse yet, sending a dongle back for reconfigure and having the vendor tell you they never got it and don't know anything about it. (This happened to us)

We are also a small company rubbing shoulders with the giants. We feel the pain just like anybody else, but the reality is that good product and support costs money. How many of you are working for free?

Rick Dorrington
aero-safe technologies inc.

Posted by: Dave Parrish Nov 30 2001, 06:27 PM

Well... none of us certainly INTEND to work for free. Sometimes it seems like the company is "Not For Profit", though. I can assure you that its not part of the business plan, that's for sure.

Dave Parrish
Parrish Associates, Inc.
Wake Forest, NC 27588-0972
www.pai-design.com

Posted by: Rick Dorrington Dec 1 2001, 01:22 AM

Hey Dave. Sounds like you may have worked for us in another life. Bet you heard something like this before, or maybe even said it.

"Well we learned a lesson on this one and we'll have to make it up on the next job."

Took me awhile to figure out how you got the smiley guy in your post. Now you've unleashed the mad dog.

Rick Dorrington
aero-safe technologies inc.

Posted by: Rick Dorrington Dec 1 2001, 01:27 AM

Hey Dave. Sounds like you may have worked for us in another life. Bet you heard something like this before, or maybe even said it.

"Well we learned a lesson on this one and we'll have to make it up on the next job."

Took me awhile to figure out how you got the smiley guy in your post. Now you've unleashed the mad dog.

Rick Dorrington
aero-safe technologies inc.

Posted by: scharlton Dec 1 2001, 01:44 AM

Rick,
I actually bought Trispective (the forerunner to IronCad) for about $300 and took the offer from IC to upgrade to Irocad 1.0. I only use it at home to work on some ideas part time. I don't do mech design at my full time job. They have ProE there.
I just want the ability to move IC to any new PC I will buy in the future. I am planning to upgrade to a workstation next year. I don't want to have to pay to move the software to my new PC. No one else uses my PC. I don't want it for free. I paid for it.

Posted by: Rick Dorrington Dec 1 2001, 03:08 PM

scharlton

I don't have any doubt that you paid for your license. You deserve to be able to use the software on any computer you choose, so long as your actions aren't contrary to the terms of the license agreement. Getting something for free wasn't really the issue - WORKING for free was. Let's say that you design some cool thing that solves the hunger problem and leads to world peace and then the aliens show up to be our friends because now we're really cool. You would own the rights to this thing, and you deserve the rewards. This is what the software companies are trying to do. These license schemes are an attempt to provide legitimate customers the ability to use the product while keeping the bad guys from stealing it. Now we all know that the fine IronCad users would never do anything like that but what about the bad guys. They are everywhere. They probably follow us all around just trying to get their hands on our copy of IronCad. Sometimes I can't sleep at night worrying about it.

Your situation is not unlike ours. One workstation- one user- one copy of IronCad. If you upgrade/replace your computer I would expect IC to issue you a new key pronto so you could enjoy the benefits of using the software that you paid for. Now if they can't do this THEN you raise the war flag and off we go. I'll be right behind you.

But wait, what if a bad guy is around

He decides that while you are getting a new license for your new workstation - legitimately of course - that he is going to steal your old computer and use IC while you're not looking. How does IC ensure that your old key doesn't function anymore? Good Question - I don't know. The honour system? (Canada eh) So here we go again, back where we started.

The point of all this is that the software companies are just trying to protect their intellectual rights while providing their real customers with quality customer service, while at the same time reducing their costs and maximizing profits. The exact same thing that we are all trying to do. Nothing wrong with that. I believe that IC shines in this area. Unfortunately they don't have much control over the methods that they can choose from to do this. Other companies think up these ideas because there is a need for them. (Beacuse of the Bad Guys) Dongles/keys/noodles or whatever. This new scheme comes right from Redmond. (Recall the big house on the big hill)

If you can come up with a better way then you might strike oil. Personally, I haven't been able to. So we ride the wave and hope it works out. I haven't heard of anyone actually having a problem with this scheme yet, so maybe it's all a big todo about nothing.








Rick Dorrington
aero-safe technologies inc.

Posted by: scharlton Dec 1 2001, 04:07 PM

Rick,
The solution is dongle or key. I have ORCAD, a PCB cad system and I use a donlge. I can use it on any machine but only one at a time becasue of the dongle. IC will have to start using dongles or keys for security. This method they are currently using is impossible. This dongle gives IC the assurance that the license is not being abused and it gives the customers the asurance that if their system crashes or they want to upgrade, they can move the dongle and the software to another machine without much hassle.

Posted by: Dave Parrish Dec 1 2001, 07:08 PM

Rick...

Along with learning lessons, particularly the "hard" way, trying to "make it up on the next job" hardly ever seems to work out. Wish it did, but the lesson just gets driven home even more firmly when it does not.

And, as the company accountant can attest, we have had our share of "lessons". We ARE learning, though. At least we don't repeat the same mistakes... we just find new ones to make.

----> Dave

Posted by: Rick Dorrington Dec 2 2001, 04:50 AM

Dave,

I checked out your website. With the type of work you're doing it can't be easy. It looks like you guys have your act together so I'm sure it will work out in the long run.

The dongle. Sure, I'll bite. Suits me fine. Has anyone else noticed the conspicuous absence of any comment from the boys at head office? We know that you're watching us and it's beginning to freak us out. Oh Oh, pill time - Ok feel better now. When you guys manage to free yourself from between the rock and the hard place why not join in.

Just remember that the dongle has its problems too. There is a cost involved at IronCads end. They will pass it on somehow. You might not see it directly but I'm sure it will be hidden somewhere along the line. AA increase?

By the way. I've been wondering if anyone can tell me what the installed user base is for IronCad, and what percentage of users are on AA? It's hard to really get a good grip on these issues without having an idea about the numbers.

Cheers


Rick Dorrington
aero-safe technologies inc.

Posted by: IronKevin Dec 3 2001, 03:00 PM

Hello IronCAD users,

We are watching this thread closely and have posted several replies on the first page. Joe Walsh's post really outlines our position. Right now, dongles are not being considered. But of course things can always change in the future. We are trying to make things easier on everyone, I have seen dongles fail frequently in the past and leave users without the use of the software. We appreciate your comments and look forward to making IronCAD the best possible experience.

Best regards,
IronKevin

Posted by: B. Ludin Dec 3 2001, 03:56 PM

I agree that dongles are hassle, especially for somebody working out of the office very often. Dongles on laptops tend to break off or get lost, etc.
Anyway, most of those advocating against the new licensing scheme are making assumptions about how re-registration is handled which are probably wrong, based on my recent experience:
When I re-installed IronCAD after installing WinXP on my computer, it refused to launch claiming that it couldn't obtain a license. When I tried to re-run the license installation file, it said that the license was already installed. This suggests that even changing the OS will change the machine ID and render an IC5 license invalid. So far so bad. However, the good news was that when I re-registred IC5, I was sent a new license installation file instantly, apparently by an automatic license server which doesn't care if the same serial number has been registered previously. That's nice because it means I don't have to go and ask IronCAD LLC to clear my previous registration in order to re-register. On the other hand, IronCAD LLC has a record of how many times I've registred the same serial number and thus may choose to come back to me and ask me to account for it. If it's going to stay that way, that's a policy I can live with.

Beat

Posted by: Rick Dorrington Dec 3 2001, 05:47 PM

Really? Your dog ate it?

Rick Dorrington
aero-safe technologies inc.

Posted by: Chris Lohman Dec 3 2001, 06:07 PM

I have been told that if someone replaces their hardware that we will be able to work with that person and reset their license so that it can be re-activated on the new machine. I have yet to go through this process so I don't have any further details.

Thinking from the non-official standpoint I can imagine that we would have to qualify your change somehow. We don't want people calling in reporting they changed their hardware when in fact they are just trying to get a free license. I know that none of you would do that, but those people are out there.

When you think about it, would we really release a product that only ever works on the first piece of hardware that it was registered on. Would a company that is trying to make money and make their customers happy really do that to someone? We'd be out of business by now if we were releasing products that required you pay more money whenever you upgraded your hardware. It's not like we have the same monopoly that Microsoft does and can force people to go through a pain like that because there's no other choice. We plan on being in business for a very long time and that plan involves helping our customers be successful, not taking as much money from you as we possibly can.

I have been told many times by our developers, marketing, ceo, and everyone else above my head that we will insure our users will be able to continue using ironcad regardless of how many times they "upgrade" their hardware and that no one should be worried about it.

Posted by: scharlton Dec 4 2001, 01:53 PM

Chris,
Thanks for the clarification!